Indrivning av skulder i utlandet - Utlandsbosatta med skulder i Sverige

[Långstrump]

Hej, jag fortsätter denna tråd då jag flyttat utomlands. Hoppas det finns någon med tips.

Jag, min man och vår 2 åriga son flyttade nyligen till USA, och till min stora förvåning fick jag veta att min man under de senaste åren samlat på sig massa skulder. Jag är oerhört ledsen… Jag fick reda på detta då vi folkbokförde oss hos min släkting som skickade bild på breven då han tydligen slutat betala då räntorna gått upp mycket pga inflationen. Det är nu ca 250 k på Intrum (inkasso), och ca 400 k på olika krediter. Vi besökte en bank här för att se ifall vi kan ta lån här, men det går inte i dagsläget. Och att ta samlingslån i Sverige för hans del är ju omöjligt nu… jag har ca 100 k sparade, skulle kunna ta ett lån för att få bort Intrum skulden (även fast det gör ont i hela själen då jag inte vill hamna i sörjan också…). De övriga lånen kan vi möjligtvis kunna betala av månadsvis.. Vad rekommenderar ni i denna knepiga situation

 

[Omega3]

Då är det bättre att skriva ut sig till en fejkadress utomlands för det är i alla fall inte olagligt. Samtidigt som du är inskriven i Sverige så är du skattemässigt bosatt där och det kan bli rejäl skattesmäll och ännu mer skulder om du blir påkommen.

Vad får du för indikation att de inte är straffbart att skriva sig på oriktig adress utomlands ?.

 

[Lasseman]

Vad får du för indikation att de inte är straffbart att skriva sig på oriktig adress utomlands ?.

Personen inte varit inloggad sedan juni så den rättsutredningen får du nog inget särskrivet svar på

 

[Frank M]

Hej, jag fortsätter denna tråd då jag flyttat utomlands. Hoppas det finns någon med tips.

Jag, min man och vår 2 åriga son flyttade nyligen till USA, och till min stora förvåning fick jag veta att min man under de senaste åren samlat på sig massa skulder. Jag är oerhört ledsen… Jag fick reda på detta då vi folkbokförde oss hos min släkting som skickade bild på breven då han tydligen slutat betala då räntorna gått upp mycket pga inflationen. Det är nu ca 250 k på Intrum (inkasso), och ca 400 k på olika krediter. Vi besökte en bank här för att se ifall vi kan ta lån här, men det går inte i dagsläget. Och att ta samlingslån i Sverige för hans del är ju omöjligt nu… jag har ca 100 k sparade, skulle kunna ta ett lån för att få bort Intrum skulden (även fast det gör ont i hela själen då jag inte vill hamna i sörjan också…). De övriga lånen kan vi möjligtvis kunna betala av månadsvis.. Vad rekommenderar ni i denna knepiga situation

start over, do not pay anything, there is zero chance that these debts could ever be enforced in the United States, and don't feel bad about it, this is part of the risks financial institutions take, you were lucky enough you could move somewhere else and start over... just like a draft dodger of the Vietnam war, occasionally escaped to Sweden, to live a normal life, and never be prosecuted for something considerably worse than not paying back a few debts to foreign financial institutions or governments, enjoy your new life and forget about Sweden...

 

[Långstrump]

start over, do not pay anything, there is zero chance that these debts could ever be enforced in the United States, and don't feel bad about it, this is part of the risks financial institutions take, you were lucky enough you could move somewhere else and start over... just like a draft dodger of the Vietnam war, occasionally escaped to Sweden, to live a normal life, and never be prosecuted for something considerably worse than not paying back a few debts to foreign financial institutions or governments, enjoy your new life and forget about Sweden...

Thank you for responding. So does that mean we would never be able to return to Sweden? And we need to report the move to Skatteverket soon, so that we can remove ourselves from my relatives address. By doing that, skatteveket will have our American address, can’t they can start chasing us over here then?

 

[Frank M]

Thank you for responding. So does that mean we would never be able to return to Sweden? And we need to report the move to Skatteverket soon, so that we can remove ourselves from my relatives address. By doing that, skatteveket will have our American address, can’t they can start chasing us over here then?

you can definitively return to Sweden to visit and you would not be arrested, however, I would make sure that all (valuable) property, e.g., jewelry etc., is in your possession and not your husband's, it is possible that if you are stopped or questioned by police, for other reasons, e.g., a speeding ticket, that police will search their database, find your husband's debts, notify the Swedish Enforcement Agency (Kronofogden), and literally confiscate property on the spot, the entire debt system in Sweden, is along the lines of "you are guilty until YOU prove that you are not," in short, you should under NO CIRCUMSTANCES get your name involved with your husband's when it comes to whatever it is he owes; also, the debts your husband have, appear to be consumer debts, not taxes or things owed to the government, it would very likely, NOT be worth it for any European creditor to try to go after you in the United States, the things your husband needs to do (again NOT you, you need to stay as far away from this as you can and NOT be involved) is 1) do NOT admit to the debt in the United States; 2) do NOT answer ANY communication from debt collectors in the United States or Europe (or anywhere else for that matter), it is theoretically possible that the European Financial institution may try to sell the debt (for cents on the dollar) to an American Debt Collection agency, any American agency, with half a brain, would never buy this debt, as it is (almost always) completely unenforceable in the United States, but if someone is dumb enough to do so, they may very well try to intimidate you with phone calls and mailings, these need to be 100% ignored and if persistent, file a harassment complaint through consumer protection in your state, it likely would be easier to just ignore, but if you do feel harassed, it is very possible that what the debt collection agency is doing, would be illegal under your state's laws; 3) the ONLY communication that your husband absolutely HAS to respond to is a summons from the court system in the state where you reside, do NOT ignore a summons, if you do, then a default judgement could be issued, many debt collection agencies, are "banking on," (no pun intended ) that you do NOT respond and then get a default judgement, it is all about volume for these guys, however, if you do respond, it is very unlikely the case would go anywhere, you would want to consult with a lawyer if this happens, but don't worry, once there appears to be "work" involved, the debt collection agency will give up 99% of the time; 4) remember, none of this, unless a judgement is issued, e.g., your husband does not respond to a summons from the court system, it could never affect your husband's credit in the United States; 5) also, remember, a summons in the United States needs to be hand delivered by a service processor to your husband (or possibly you, if you reside at the same address) and EVERYTHING has to be perfect, one misspelling of a name, wrong middle initial etc., will make it null and void, process serving rules and regulations, vary from state to state, and sometimes (only in some states) for very small amounts (i.e., "small claims court), communication that is not through an official process server is legal, but this would appear not to apply to you, in short, if there is a lawsuit against your husband you will know; 6) if you are still concerned you may be "missing" a lawsuit, then call the Clerk's Office for the court system within the county where you reside, and they can let you know if a law suit has been filed, in many counties, this information is also available online, and sometimes there are even state wide databases that can be searched online; 7) AGAIN, IT IS EXTREMELY UNLIKELY THAT ANYTHING WOULD PROGRESS BEYOND #2, so really, don't worry, and if it does, as long as your husband pays attention, he is most likely going to prevail, especially, let's say, on the 0.5-1%, that this was to go to trial, consumer laws in your state are likely to be the ones enforced, NOT the (draconian) Swedish laws, and there is almost no chance at all, a debt collection agency, owning a foreign consumer debt would prevail, and in the end, they would be responsible for all court costs when they loose (this is also significantly more expensive than it would ever be in any European country), in short, they are not going to bother doing this... 8) of course, if you husband moves back to Sweden, Swedish laws would prevail, and his credit rating would be in the dumps, very little chance of getting a loan etc., however, it sounds like this may already have happened, so your husband, if he ever plans on living in Sweden again, needs to wait until the statue of limitation runs out, which, when it comes to Sweden is not straight forward, but again, your husband has already created this mess (in Sweden), and you're here now, so, from a financial standpoint, I would leave Sweden as a place you visit in the summer and on holidays... and AGAIN, YOU PERSONALLY, need to stay away from your husband's debts, if there was to be a divorce and you want to move back to Sweden, you should not need to be saddled with your husband's financial mess... also, make sure your husband behaves himself in the United States, he has a second chance, and it would be advisable he pays his bills going forward...

 

[Långstrump]

you can definitively return to Sweden to visit and you would not be arrested, however, I would make sure that all (valuable) property, e.g., jewelry etc., is in your possession and not your husband's, it is possible that if you are stopped or questioned by police, for other reasons, e.g., a speeding ticket, that police will search their database, find your husband's debts, notify the Swedish Enforcement Agency (Kronofogden), and literally confiscate property on the spot, the entire debt system in Sweden, is along the lines of "you are guilty until YOU prove that you are not," in short, you should under NO CIRCUMSTANCES get your name involved with your husband's when it comes to whatever it is he owes; also, the debts your husband have, appear to be consumer debts, not taxes or things owed to the government, it would very likely, NOT be worth it for any European creditor to try to go after you in the United States, the things your husband needs to do (again NOT you, you need to stay as far away from this as you can and NOT be involved) is 1) do NOT admit to the debt in the United States; 2) do NOT answer ANY communication from debt collectors in the United States or Europe (or anywhere else for that matter), it is theoretically possible that the European Financial institution may try to sell the debt (for cents on the dollar) to an American Debt Collection agency, any American agency, with half a brain, would never buy this debt, as it is (almost always) completely unenforceable in the United States, but if someone is dumb enough to do so, they may very well try to intimidate you with phone calls and mailings, these need to be 100% ignored and if persistent, file a harassment complaint through consumer protection in your state, it likely would be easier to just ignore, but if you do feel harassed, it is very possible that what the debt collection agency is doing, would be illegal under your state's laws; 3) the ONLY communication that your husband absolutely HAS to respond to is a summons from the court system in the state where you reside, do NOT ignore a summons, if you do, then a default judgement could be issued, many debt collection agencies, are "banking on," (no pun intended ) that you do NOT respond and then get a default judgement, it is all about volume for these guys, however, if you do respond, it is very unlikely the case would go anywhere, you would want to consult with a lawyer if this happens, but don't worry, once there appears to be "work" involved, the debt collection agency will give up 99% of the time; 4) remember, none of this, unless a judgement is issued, e.g., your husband does not respond to a summons from the court system, it could never affect your husband's credit in the United States; 5) also, remember, a summons in the United States needs to be hand delivered by a service processor to your husband (or possibly you, if you reside at the same address) and EVERYTHING has to be perfect, one misspelling of a name, wrong middle initial etc., will make it null and void, process serving rules and regulations, vary from state to state, and sometimes (only in some states) for very small amounts (i.e., "small claims court), communication that is not through an official process server is legal, but this would appear not to apply to you, in short, if there is a lawsuit against your husband you will know; 6) if you are still concerned you may be "missing" a lawsuit, then call the Clerk's Office for the court system within the county where you reside, and they can let you know if a law suit has been filed, in many counties, this information is also available online, and sometimes there are even state wide databases that can be searched online; 7) AGAIN, IT IS EXTREMELY UNLIKELY THAT ANYTHING WOULD PROGRESS BEYOND #2, so really, don't worry, and if it does, as long as your husband pays attention, he is most likely going to prevail, especially, let's say, on the 0.5-1%, that this was to go to trial, consumer laws in your state are likely to be the ones enforced, NOT the (draconian) Swedish laws, and there is almost no chance at all, a debt collection agency, owning a foreign consumer debt would prevail, and in the end, they would be responsible for all court costs when they loose (this is also significantly more expensive than it would ever be in any European country), in short, they are not going to bother doing this... 8) of course, if you husband moves back to Sweden, Swedish laws would prevail, and his credit rating would be in the dumps, very little chance of getting a loan etc., however, it sounds like this may already have happened, so your husband, if he ever plans on living in Sweden again, needs to wait until the statue of limitation runs out, which, when it comes to Sweden is not straight forward, but again, your husband has already created this mess (in Sweden), and you're here now, so, from a financial standpoint, I would leave Sweden as a place you visit in the summer and on holidays... and AGAIN, YOU PERSONALLY, need to stay away from your husband's debts, if there was to be a divorce and you want to move back to Sweden, you should not need to be saddled with your husband's financial mess... also, make sure your husband behaves himself in the United States, he has a second chance, and it would be advisable he pays his bills going forward...

Thank you very much for your insightful response! We would of course want to pay it off and have been trying but it seems like we cannot get out of this mess. It’s just too much.. The plan is to move back to Europe in the future but this makes it seem impossible to do so. Does it not work like in USA where one can file bankruptcy and start from square one? Will the unpaid debt ever go away? Say 15 years from now?
And can you please clarify what you mean by staying away from my husbands debts? Everything’s is in his name!
I’m still very chocked and overwhelmed by the situation, I feel like the nightmare will never end. This was not how expected the new “adventure” to begin… But I truly appreciate your responses!

 

[Frank M]

Thank you very much for your insightful response! We would of course want to pay it off and have been trying but it seems like we cannot get out of this mess. It’s just too much.. The plan is to move back to Europe in the future but this makes it seem impossible to do so. Does it not work like in USA where one can file bankruptcy and start from square one? Will the unpaid debt ever go away? Say 15 years from now?
And can you please clarify what you mean by staying away from my husbands debts? Everything’s is in his name!
I’m still very chocked and overwhelmed by the situation, I feel like the nightmare will never end. This was not how expected the new “adventure” to begin… But I truly appreciate your responses!

your husband's credit in Sweden is likely to be worthless at this point, in short, whether you pay this money now or later will make no difference, currently money is expensive, i.e., if you live in the United States and there is no way anyone can make you pay, nor take your assets, then waiting would make perfect sense, i.e., instead of paying a bank in Sweden, a country to where you, may or may not return, put the money in a college savings account / fund in the United States, and if it turns out you don't go back to Sweden, then this money can be used (tax free) for you child's education as her or she reaches college age, also, many states, Florida in particular, have special savings plans that allow you to lock in Public University tuition with today's prices... if it turns out you won't be needing this money for your child's education, then you can just take it with you (at a very small penalty) when you move back to Sweden and tell Kronofogden you never received any letters, but that you are, as you say, "of course interested in paying your debts," and start with the lump sum from whatever savings plan you had when you were in the states... one thing that you can be sure of is, that in the Nordic Countries, the Swedish Enforcement Agency will find you, and they will get what they are owed from your husband, so make sure, that any property you have after you move back, is in your name only, and make sure to consult with a Swedish lawyer specializing in debts, bankruptcy and debt restructuring prior to moving back... the Kronofogden agency is one of the most powerful agencies I've ever seen, it almost conjures up thoughts of medieval times when it comes to the power it has over individual citizens, there certainly is no agency in the United States that, in a non-emergency situation even comes close, in short, if you go back, there are two things your husband can be certain of as he gets older 1) eventually he will die and 2) Kronofogden will get whatever money it is owed... in terms of, bankruptcy, you need to check with a Swedish lawyer, specializing in this area, however, for the most part, bankruptcy in Europe is much more difficult and not likely to give you the "clean slate" it does in the United States... yes, everything needs to stay in your husband's name and do NOT under any circumstances take out a loan in the United States to pay for debts in Sweden, again, as long as you are here, forget about Sweden, forget about your debts over there, they can do nothing to you over here, on the other hand, if you allow them to trick you in to something, and especially if you start getting debts here, to cover things in Sweden, I would call that Game Over, essentially, look at the time over here, as nothing else, except a new life, and don't mix the two up, also, I find it interesting how people from the Nordic countries feel that this is somehow a moral obligation to pay these things off when you are not in a position to do so... this is a game, and trust me, the banks (including any Swedish bank) look at this as nothing but a game, don't allow it to become sentimental, it's business, do what is best for the bottom line, i.e., yourself and your family, forget about the Swedish bank, instead, while you are here, save for something in the United States, e.g., the college fund, other investments etc., and if (when) you go back, start paying Swedish debts, NOT now, there is no advantage to you, and only disadvantages to admit to these debts and pay them, and there is absolutely nothing illegal to what you are doing, and there is ZERO chance they could be collected on until you go back... again, it's a game, the banks play it, so should you...

 

[Jerry85]

I agree with you completely that Swedish banks and credit card institutions will not put any time or financial resources to pursue a civil court procedure on a debtor that lives outside the Nordic countries when it comes to collecting private debts, because it's to complicated, expensive to hire lawyers and there is a lack of international coorporation between the OECD countries to collect private debts such as bank loans and credit card debts, because the execution laws for private debts are different between the Western countries.

As long as you don't have any major amounts of unpaid bank loans or credit card bills the likelihood that the bank or credit company will collect the debt by pursuing a civil court complaint is negligible. However when it comes to state debts there are international treaties and agreements that makes it possible for the tax authorities to corporate with each other internationally in order to collect tax debts, fee and penalties from debtors living abroad.

I personally moved from Sweden in the Summer 2020 and left behind almost 50.000 euro worth of debts. Most of the debts were student loans (30.000 euro) and the rest was mainly credit card debts. I can't disclose where I live now because of still being searched by the Swedish banks, but I can say that I live in a Central European country. I have been living here for three and a half years and I have NEVER received a letter from a Swedish bank neither a letter from a local debt collection agency in my country threatening taking me to court.

This goes to show that it is very easy to dodge paying your debts when you leave Sweden and move to a country outside the Nordic countries as long as you have student loans and private debts, because there aren't even a coorporation between the EU countries when it comes to collecting these debts from debtors moving between EU countries, even through you're settled in the country and have reported your address to the tax authority.

It's important to mention that I have never reported that to the Swedish Tax Agency (Skatteverket) that I left Sweden. It think that is the main reason why the Swedish banks and credit card companies are not chasing me abroad, because I haven't reported to the Tax Agency that I have left the country. They still believe that I'm physically living in the country when that's not the case. The Swedish Enforcement Authority (Kronofogden) can't do anything abroad. They can't seizure assets that are available in foreign bank accounts, apartments or houses, because they're only allowed by law to execute in Sweden.

In my opinion, as long as you don't have any state debts and you live outside the Nordic countries you don't need to worry about anything.

 

[Långstrump]

I agree with you completely that Swedish banks and credit card institutions will not put any time or financial resources to pursue a civil court procedure on a debtor that lives outside the Nordic countries when it comes to collecting private debts, because it's to complicated, expensive to hire lawyers and there is a lack of international coorporation between the OECD countries to collect private debts such as bank loans and credit card debts, because the execution laws for private debts are different between the Western countries.

As long as you don't have any major amounts of unpaid bank loans or credit card bills the likelihood that the bank or credit company will collect the debt by pursuing a civil court complaint is negligible. However when it comes to state debts there are international treaties and agreements that makes it possible for the tax authorities to corporate with each other internationally in order to collect tax debts, fee and penalties from debtors living abroad.

I personally moved from Sweden in the Summer 2020 and left behind almost 50.000 euro worth of debts. Most of the debts were student loans (30.000 euro) and the rest was mainly credit card debts. I can't disclose where I live now because of still being searched by the Swedish banks, but I can say that I live in a Central European country. I have been living here for three and a half years and I have NEVER received a letter from a Swedish bank neither a letter from a local debt collection agency in my country threatening taking me to court.

This goes to show that it is very easy to dodge paying your debts when you leave Sweden and move to a country outside the Nordic countries as long as you have student loans and private debts, because there aren't even a coorporation between the EU countries when it comes to collecting these debts from debtors moving between EU countries, even through you're settled in the country and have reported your address to the tax authority.

It's important to mention that I have never reported that to the Swedish Tax Agency (Skatteverket) that I left Sweden. It think that is the main reason why the Swedish banks and credit card companies are not chasing me abroad, because I haven't reported to the Tax Agency that I have left the country. They still believe that I'm physically living in the country when that's not the case. The Swedish Enforcement Authority (Kronofogden) can't do anything abroad. They can't seizure assets that are available in foreign bank accounts, apartments or houses, because they're only allowed by law to execute in Sweden.

In my opinion, as long as you don't have any state debts and you live outside the Nordic countries you don't need to worry about anything.

Thank both of you so much for the thorough responses, highly appreciated! Since Frank’s responses we have been following the advices he has given us! I have been feeling more at ease with the situation. It was a shock for me so it’s taking me some time. When I’m ever in doubt, I go back here and read the messages to get back on track.

The total equals out to around the same as your (Jerry) debt I believe, and no state debts luckily. I still haven’t reported the move to Skatteverket due to serveral reasons as of now, but would that be a bad move to do? Do you have your address at someone you know in Sweden or how did you go about that?